Whoever Lestated Sam Should Have Lashered Jack - Ashley and Joel Discuss The Thrall S1E5 of The Mayfair Witches

Whoever Lestated Sam Should Have Lashered Jack - Ashley and Joel Discuss The Thrall S1E5 of The Mayfair Witches

Joel: The Articulate Coveen is the original unofficial podcast and fan community for Anne Rice's interview with the vampire and Anne Rice's immortal universe from AMC and AMC Plus.

Joel: Welcome to the Articulate Cove and we are your hosts. I'm Joel. I'm

Ashley: Ashley

Joel: and we are the articulate coven. Ashley, let's just imagine that you find yourself with a thousand page novel It's the first in an expansive trilogy. Your main character is actually joined by her twelve immediate ancestors as co protagonist who we watch, live out like this long term plan by their family, familiar spirit. Who may be a little more than he seems actually? He's got his own backstory too, but you know what? We'll save that for the second novel. We also introduced you to a centuries old secret organization that studies and seeks to understand the paranormal has proof of vampires and mortals, ghost demons, psychics, and more. Finally, There's an interesting male protagonist that's not part of either of the above stories and yet he totally is and always has been You got eight episodes of a TV show. To adapt that first book for TV and launch not one TV franchise mind you, but hopefully several including at least one based on that secret organization. So of course, the thing you do with your fifth episode is to set up a bottle episode where you put your three central characters in one building, you light the house on fire, you stab your combined male protagonist. That's that's the way that you you set everything up. Sure. Makes perfect sense when you think about it. Sure. Sure.

Ashley: Sure. Sure. But oddly, What's so strange is that the beginning of this episode is the part that I liked the most. Oh, this episode's all over the place.

Joel: Here's the thing. It no. It's so and we're gonna get to all of it. By the way, we are the articular coven. We are your original fan community and podcast for An Rice as a mortal universe has brought to you by AMC. Particularly right now, we're talking about Mayfair, which is the season one episode five episode entitled The Thrall. Although, if you go back to our old episodes, we've talked about interview with the Vampire, we've talked about The movie is made on Anirise's books in the past, Anirise, as well as the first, what, five Vampire Chronicles. We talked about the first mummy book. And we've got more coming soon. So tonight, we're gonna talk about the thrall and we're gonna get right into it because there is a lot. This is a big, big episode in some ways. And Yeah. That's what I find myself with is my little rant that I wrote because honestly it's this is an amazing book. And this is an amazing opportunity to adapt it. I've said before on this show, you know, we're not gonna see another adaptation of this, at least for a decade, honestly, probably not in my lifetime. Right. This is our shot to get this done. And by god, they've just wasted so much time, plot, interesting characters for new and occasionally interesting developments. This episode is beautiful. It's honestly a pretty good episode of television if you divorce yourself from the subject matter, the the source material. But I'm just super frustrated by what's not in this show.

Ashley: It's it's it's So someone in our Facebook group asked and and very validly because we ran and, I mean, we were raving about how fantastic interview was. And and we supported so many of the changes. I mean, we pretty much supported all of the changes that that they made to that. And why this feels so different. And I think so much of it just comes down to you. It it I think it's the storytelling feels jointed and discombobulated in a way that makes me afraid that that these show runners aren't as invested in the source material as the show runners have interviewed. So some of the changes that they make aren't quite as thought out. As the changes that were made to to our vampires. And I think that that has a lot to do with it. And I also think not we discussed this I said this once before. We're not as comfortable with the source material. So we can't maybe sometimes see in-depth. Maybe it's the opposite. Maybe they know way more about this than we do, and we're just not really seeing the the depth of the changes they're making. I don't know. But I think it's what what worries me is it feels more like the first the first scenario. So I think that's why we're like why we are struggling against this one so much because it is it's now it's starting to feel like it's it's like that Game of Thrones feeling where you're like, no no no no No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Don't Why aren't you telling this part? Why didn't why did we go there instead? You know, it's like that like knowing what was written, knowing what's still to come. And knowing that that changes sometimes they're making or making the future storytelling difficult.

Joel: Yes. Yes. I very much agree with that. I here, I'm gonna get to a positive as quickly as I can because this comes very early in the episode. I mentioned this previously when we were talking about the book, but Ciprian calls out, we've got a a little, I think, a foreshadowing of something that's gonna come in the show itself. Ciprian says that he loves snow in a place where there can never be snow. We are absolutely getting snow at Christmas time for the big finale of this show. Now, whether that's this season or next season, I don't know, which by the way, we haven't mentioned it, Ashley. We did officially get a confirmation on season for this show this

Ashley: guess, I'm I'm excited. I'm pumped for it. Like, do not think that I am am like we said, we're not to the point of hate watching or anything like that. But and I'm I'm here for it. I'm having a good time watching it. I like, when I can when I can let myself go a little bit, it's I can really I can really enjoy it, which I really got into this episode a few times. It wasn't as good on the second viewing. I felt like, which I that's disappointing, but that my first viewing in particular, especially at the beginning, I was like, hell, yeah, this is wild. I don't know what's up or down right now. I'm so confused.

Joel: Yes. I I'm excited for season two as well. And I don't know now. You you'd mentioned this last episode. I don't we don't know now whether It seems so obvious previously before we started watching the show where they would break season one. And and now I have no clue where this thing is right. The beginning of season end of season one and moving into season two.

Ashley: Yeah. We're like I feel like we're like we're like we're like maybe like four three hundred pages into the book right now. And we're we're more than halfway through our episodes. So it's like, oh, they're either gonna rip through some story line real f and quick here. Or we're gonna stop way before we expected to.

Joel: Yes. Yes. Anyway, I'm there we go. A positive. SIPRIAN called out the snow, and I think that's the writer's calling out the snow, which happens in the book. It's like a really big moment in the book. It is something that does happen in New Orleans. I lived in New Orleans for three years happen twice while I live there. So it absolutely happens. And boy, yeah, there you go. Yay, miss miss spalding, I'm excited for what you've done there. Please give me snow. Please don't please don't break my heart on that one. But Ashley, we're we're here again. We're ten minutes into the episode before the characters wake up and realize that they're in a groundhog day scenario. At all. And again, when you know how much ground there is left to cover and how much of these characters and these story lines and these histories, we've yet to even crack open at all, it just feels like wasted time. And

Ashley: it's weird because within the episode itself, they're teasing more and more of the backstory as we go. We're getting a hint dropped about we've had Julian mentioned. We've had Anthem mentioned. We've seen we've seen Sela's name on the tombstone. You know, like, We're getting all of these references at Stuart Townsend's in this episode. So we're getting all these like these like whispers and hints of this really in-depth history that we know these characters and this family has. And so it it it's like, what what are we doing? You're so you're gonna tell us the story or not? Or you're gonna or you're not.

Joel: To let me ask you a question, Ashley. Other than just like TV watcher anxiety reasons, why would Ciprian carry the knife around after they discover it? She, you know, she finds the knife come, brings it up to him and says, oh my god, I think I might have stabbed you. And he says, well, let me touch it. There's no reason to guess. And he says, no, it was Carlotta. Carlotta tried to kill you. I got in the way. And and then he

Ashley: carries the knife around for the rest of the episode. I kept Maybe for protection. What's he gonna do? Maybe for protection. I don't know. Because that crazy car lot is running around that place. Sure. No. You definitely cannot stop last year. But crazy car lot is still running around, and they don't know where she is.

Joel: That's a good point. You're right. They don't know where Kahlada is.

Ashley: So I'd rather

Joel: in the episode. Someone

Ashley: who's not actively dying of sepsis should probably have the knife instead.

Joel: Tear.

Joel: Right? I just kept thinking, like, are they carrying it around because they think they need to test it or something like it's not needed to buy a dog? They don't need to test for rabies.

Ashley: Is that magic? Is it a magic knife? Dog,

Joel: you gotta collect the dog. Yeah. Well, I mean, it turns out to be a magic knife. Yes.

Ashley: Yes. It does.

Joel: Okay. That's a good transition, Ashley. Let's let's talk about the level. And we've talked about this a little bit, our our fans are are listeners in the Facebook group, especially in the Discord group to a lesser degree, which by the way, if you want more conversation about these shows in this universe, check out the links in our show notes for our Facebook group if you're a Facebook user or if not, our Discord community both have active conversations about the books and the shows and other media that you might be interested in, all sorts of fun stuff going on there. But a lot of them have been talking about the level of paganism, the level of actual witchcraft quote unquote, the level of, you know, spellcraft that seems to be at play in this world of the TV show that really just frankly isn't in the books and

Ashley: Right.

Joel: Right.

Joel: And didn't do that much research into witchcraft, honestly. Like, the history of of which trials have sort of brought in there a little bit and a little quite a bit of, like, British folklore and, you know, mythology, but basically none. But

Ashley: really only as it relates to our witches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And really only as it relates to our our Mayfair witches. Like, it's not like, a generalization of, like, here's generally some history about which is, you know, it's not like that at all. It's, like, very specific to, you know, to the what our our Mayfair witches are going through. So, yeah, it's interesting. I think maybe that's to appeal to out side out, like, non book reader non book readers. I think maybe it's to appeal to that sort of, like, to give people an expectation of, like, of of some sort of, like, witchiness as we, you know.

Joel: Hundred percent. I was thinking in my head, oh, this is they they wanna appeal to the discovery of witch's folks. Right? And they wanna

Ashley: Right.

Joel: You know, the people my age who watch the craft when they were in high school.

Ashley: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel: It more than that, honestly, Ashley, it occurred to me last night. It's a little bit of the doctor strange crowd. Right? Like, people expect a little bit of fireworks and and, you know, sparkly kung fu from our witches. And if you had only these like psychic powers, which is really how these witches are presented in the books that might just not play for our it's kind of like we argued about our vampires being messy and interview with

Ashley: the writers. Right.

Joel: Where in the book, they never stole a drop of blood. But TV viewers would not get that unless -- Right. -- unless you had somebody explain, oh, these these vampire's always drinking.

Ashley: They're so nice and tidy. I mean, Well, and it would look eventually, it would look weird to us too. Play right on the screen. And it would look weird to us too. Like, that's the thing you think you might want that. But it that would look fucking weird. It would be like, here's these vampires. Like, killing people, and we don't see any blood at all. Like, because it's they've got really good suction. I don't know. That's that's absurd and it would look silly. It's cool when you read it, but I don't wanna see it that way.

Joel: Also, imagine imagine the mouth foley noises that you'd have to come up with

Ashley: She's surprised -- on

Joel: TV. -- people

Ashley: with the Missiphomia would freak out. That is that is not somewhere appropriate. I would be that would be terrible. God.

Joel: So so but if you're if you're only listening to this podcast, on only watching the show though, you should know. In the books, the witches just really aren't like this. You have a handful of of characters in the witch series and the vampire series and, you know, throughout Anne's books that do actual witchcraft or spellcraft. Voodoo, mostly. You know, you Merrick is is from the voodoo tradition. So is David Talbot, honestly, that's where he's dabbled in real magic. Is it from voodoo? And so that's the world that you delve into more than, you know, herbs and this sort of like Western tradition of the the female witch.

Ashley: A fucking hydroponic. A book about female witches. Hydroponic. Herb garden in your basement. What the fuck?

Joel: When

Ashley: we that was wild to me. I that just like, and I didn't even really catch it until the second.

Joel: There's so many levels.

Ashley: Oh, it's so great. But yeah. I mean, I've I had a good time watching this episode. I was really Like, when I watched, I watched it the first time on Friday, I watched it again this morning. And I was like, I had a really good time last night. When I watched this, I'm kind of excited to watch it again. And then it it just didn't play as well on my second viewing, and I was kinda disappointed. But But this one really helped my attention more than some of the other ones have. I really felt like they were building some really some good tension throughout this one. I care a little bit more about SIP now than I did. I I still don't know that I care much about Rowan.

Joel: I I care more about SIPRIAN two, although I had a very strong question that just kept reverberating in my mind, why couldn't he have just been Michael Curry? Why couldn't we have met a Michael who met his Aaron Leitner or whoever brought him into the organization, who did that earlier. Before Michael went and met Rowan. In, you know, in the books, they come together first and then the Tallamasca meets Michael. But what it what would have happened if they had met Michael and the telemasco was what dried Michael out from his alcoholism. That could be Ciprian. I understand the race change honestly.

Ashley: Oh, yeah. I'm happy with that. I gotta

Joel: make this cast more diverse.

Ashley: Please. With that, please. Need

Joel: to change his name. There are a ton of African Americans with Irish descent in particular in New Orleans. Right. -- who grew up in New Orleans who's generationally, you know, and of Ciprian's age, again, he could anyway, I just I wonder why you needed to change it. Why did

Ashley: this have

Joel: to be a wholly new character? And this episode in particular played that out I do care more about him now than I do before. I do think there are interesting things to be found in his backstory. Like we mentioned last week, he he references other people's memories are cleaner. Boy, there's something in this guy's past. Odette is such a big character here. Right? And Odette doesn't exist in the books. But it just makes me think, why couldn't this have been Michael? Right? Just -- Yeah. -- we got a different Louis in the show.

Ashley: Well, actually, we got

Joel: the books and we loved that Louis Moore, honest.

Ashley: Right. I kind of have a thought about it, but it's real, real spoiler y. So I don't know if if I'm gonna say it now or if I should wait in this episode. Yeah. I have a theory on that,

Joel: then just Yeah. Episode.

Ashley: Yeah.

Joel: Okay. Yeah. We'll we'll get to that in a minute. So this episode, though, brought to bear something else that and they mentioned it a couple of different times. Specifically, in the post episode episode insider part, Spalding mentions that Lascher has powers in this house that he has nowhere else on earth. Then also, we get some moments with Stuart Townsend, for instance. When Stuart Townsend appears to SiP, he's when he finally recognizes Sippen sees him and says, oh, you fell in love with her, didn't you? He doesn't like that. Don't die in this

Ashley: Don't die in his house.

Joel: Oh, it was so scary. For a minute. Stewart

Joel: Stewart

Joel: Townsend is from the books. I don't believe in the books though that Lascher is the reason that he died, which is

Ashley: when implied

Joel: by that exchange that they have. In the books, I'm pretty sure Carlotta kills him.

Ashley: Yeah. I think I think I think it's more

Joel: in a rug.

Ashley: Yeah. He ends up in a rug in the attic. I'm pretty sure it's where he ends up. And yeah. Carlotta definitely killed him. So this house. But I love the idea of like I you know how I love this house, and I love it as I need it to be a CareWork and that really came through in this in this episode, big time for me.

Joel: Yes. You know, it did come through in this episode. And I and I honestly, this is one of those changes that I think I can get behind. It's a little alarming when you first hear. The book in the book, the house is not magic. It's not magic.

Ashley: No. No. Bad

Joel: memories. It's been full of powerful psychics for generations. Right? There is a familiar spirit that lives in it, but the house itself is not magic. Here, clearly, the house is some sort of center of power in some way. And I gotta tell you, I gotta think I'm here for it. It's a little bit American horror story more than Anne Rice. But I I don't think I mind it honestly.

Ashley: I am totally here for it. If the poltergeisty shit, I am here for it. I really really like it. I like a haunted house. I love a haunted house. And I love I love this house and this story. It just to me, it always I know it wasn't supernatural within the book, but the way it was so, you know, so and in in her beautiful way with words, just described and how lovingly Rowan spends time fixing it back and and she and Michael spend time fixing the house back and making it, you know, restoring it to its glory days because it's fallen into such disrepair, and it becomes such a such a thing in the book. And I am really, really excited about the way that they're exploring that in the show.

Joel: Speaking of haunted house, aunt Millie, we get an aunt Millie reveal here. Okay. So we have joked about

Ashley: Oh my god. She's a ghost.

Joel: Yeah. We've joked about this sheet. She hasn't been named so far in the show really, but she hasn't been introduced to anyone. We've talked about, like, what's the deal here? It's kinda weird. Like, is this even are they trying to play it? Like, this is Carlotta's girlfriend and not her sister, what's going on? No. She's a ghost. She's

Ashley: a fucking ghost. I loved it. I loved it. I was like, Oh, that's so scary. That's so scary. There are some legit creepy things in this.

Joel: None. This is quite creepy. None of the Mayfair's do this though. It it breaks a lot of what the whole point of this is supposed to be for, at least is laid out in the books. In particular, here's my question, and I'm assuming we're gonna get answers to this, why in Jesus' name literally in this case? Why would this Carlotta especially allow or help her sister to stay in corporate form. Like, what are what are you trying to do other than showcase you know, spookiness. I'm wondering what is spalding getting it, and I'm hoping she's got an answer for that because the Carlotta that you built here, this fundamentalist Carlotta, would not help hold her sister in the the real world. Like, she would she would want her to go on to

Ashley: the end. Like, I think I think she would unless she's doing it because she she can't She can't be without her. She doesn't wanna be completely alone in that house. You know with with Tiedra. She doesn't wanna be completely alone in

Joel: this world.

Ashley: You know? She's and with him, she's already, you know, kicked Cortland out. She's, you know, it they're by themselves in that place. And I I kinda feel like it's because she's she has to be doing it on purpose because Milly says, I can't what does she say? I can't I can't hold on without her or something like that? Like, she can't

Joel: stay

Ashley: by herself.

Joel: Hold on without her.

Ashley: Yeah. So Carla is clearly keeping her there, helping to keep her there. And maybe it's just because Lily wants to stay, maybe she's afraid to go. I don't know, but I really liked it. I thought that was kind of a cool change. And it does make it feel a little more creepy, a little more scary, a little more horror movie ish, and I'm and I'm here for that too. I like that vibe. I don't mind just being creepy and scary. It should

Joel: be.

Joel: And and like we talked about in the book episode, especially the the characters of Michael and Aaron, in some cases, being kind of interchangeable and you could you could see how they could could quash those two characters together. Definitely the same thing here. Millie in the books plays basically zero role. Right. I'm I'm like literally wracking my brain right now to think of what is her end in the novel. After Carlotta dies, what happens to Millie. And I I literally cannot remember what happens.

Ashley: Yeah. No. I don't either. I remember

Joel: the scene between Carlotta and Row and Vividley, but

Ashley: I also know

Joel: what happens after Karla's death honestly.

Ashley: Does she stay in the house? I think she might just stay in the house with Rowan and Michael.

Joel: But I can't remember -- Maybe so -- because Rowan's I mean, Michael's

Ashley: aunt also moves in. Yeah. So maybe Yeah.

Joel: And maybe maybe Michael's aunt and and and Milly become It's

Ashley: like old ladies club on the porch. Yes. You

Joel: know?

Joel: Okay. Let's talk about costuming here because this is an

Ashley: ongoing thing for us.

Joel: Here's one where they nailed it. Rowan's dress. Rowan's dress is great. Good job costuming.

Ashley: It's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. She looks great in clothes. Like, she looks amazing in clothes. I'm really glad they took her out of those fucking brown pajamas. You know, like yeah. She looks fantastic in this episode. Episode. And SIP looks good in this episode. I mean, he's half dead most of the time, but, like, he looks pretty hot in this episode. But they're doing our guy Lasher, so dirty.

Joel: Yes. Okay. So I I didn't hate his tucks when he first shows up. But then throughout that scene, I just you're you're right. It's like he doesn't fit in his clothes or something. And in particular okay. So I've heard people say that he's not attractive.

Ashley: That is true. In

Joel: Boardwalk Empire, listen, in Boardwalk Empire, he is literally disfigured. He's he's a war veteran. And and part of his face is missing. He wears like a porcelain mask to cover his wound on his face, snaps on with his glasses. He is still fucking smoking in that shit. Many women think so, and it shows up. Like, he's a very attractive man, as we've talked about, he comes from a dynasty of Hollywood, lovely lovely folks. Okay? Yeah. Him and all his people are good looking people. The haircut that they do to this dude and the clothing that they hang on him are doing him no favors. And yet still, this Lasher Rowan scene. After she says goodbye, that she she tells Lasher to get rid of SiP and, you know, send him to safety, and they're alone in the house. When she puts on the dress and lashes and his tucks and they're wandering around together, they go into the outside They do the the fireflies, they resurrect the fox, all the things. That is such good work. I think it's probably the best overall scene in the whole show so far. It fits. It fits their characters. It fits what happens in the book. It fits the the way that Lasher courts his witches -- Yes. -- and the nature of Rowan's interest in him, particularly the reviving of the Fox. The connection to the fireflies, this idea of amplifying her own ability to give and take life that's what Rowan finds seductive from Lascher using him as like a a an amplifying device for her own power. And that's what he's selling in all of these scenes.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. It it really you know, and their chemistry really picked up in this episode for me as well. And it's like I think someone in our group mentioned, like, she can't just be she can't just be running around looking scared and breathless all the time. Like, we cannot have this. It can't keep happening. Some things have to change. So she can't just be afraid of Lascher. She has to start feeling like she can either, like, either she's into him or she's into him and she's also trying to figure out how to fight him. And but really, you know, taking up again, like we say her complete lack of agency. This episode, it felt like they're trying to trying to grab hold of that a little bit more. I'm really hoping that carries on with the next episode as well. I'm not sure because, you know, we go from a scene of episode where it's just basically her and him for half of it, at least half of it. And then we're gonna have, you know, a House full of Witches next episode according to the scenes ahead. So who knows how much individual agency Rowan's going to have in this at all? But but at least she's surrounding herself with powerful women.

Joel: I listen. I am so worried about this witch hunter storyline. The only thing that has me excited is the fact that there are a lot of really cool women actors that are going to show up in that scene and then also characters like, you know, Tessa, for instance, and Jojo that we like. Like, there are, I think, going to be characters here that I will find interesting. It just didn't have anything to do with this book story.

Ashley: No. It really

Joel: does it. I don't I don't get it.

Ashley: And again, it could be like this could be a way of reaching out and kind of expanding reaching out to that expanded audience. You know, maybe having storylines that feel familiar like on modern day witch hunt, you know. Would be appealing to nonbook readers. I don't know.

Joel: The the Lasher Rowan stuff You're you're right though. It was good. It's a little sexy. It's a little spooky. It honestly, it felt to me like it came from someone else's adaptation of like they stole a scene or somebody else's script, shoved into the middle of theirs. Anyway, whoever wrote that, I hope they write some more episodes in season two. Lori Yancy in our Facebook group though had the quote of the week --

Ashley: Got it. -- I think so.

Joel: I wanted to share with everybody whoever listed up Sam Reed needed to be the person who lasered up Jack.

Ashley: Yes. And please and thank you y'all have a conversation about it. My god. Because he is hot. He's objectively hot. That's an objectively good looking man. I don't know. Yeah.

Joel: Both of these guys. We talked about we talked about how perfect the casting of of Jack Houston was for Lascher. I would it was the number one thing that I was excited about for the show is not him. It's it's costuming and makeup and and hair that have failed him honestly. I really I really feel that way. The writing's not doing them a lot of favors, but those three departments, I think, could be doing them some even without the writing. Okay. Why is CEP going to be in trouble if his sister is found in this apartment?

Ashley: I don't know.

Joel: You know?

Ashley: Is it Like,

Joel: how much it doesn't own this place?

Ashley: It's so that was so weird.

Joel: I use this as a safe house sometimes. This isn't you know, this is this is his place.

Ashley: Right. It feels like his apartment. Like, he lives there. He's very comfortable there. And his sister comes to visit him there. So, obviously, he fucking lives there. Yeah. It was weird. It it was weird, Blair. Right. Exactly. And she Like, she's not allowed to know she well, she obviously doesn't know what he does. But it's like something he would be in trouble. Like, that's so fucking weird. I I don't I don't know. I didn't get that either. That was very strange. And

Joel: the implication was, like, maybe she'd be mind wiped or or or, you know, disappeared or whatever was sort of the way that he was, like, like, you'll be in trouble too. Anyway, I don't I don't know. I I don't get that. Hopefully, they'll explain that. Again, it's one of those things that, like, when Roland Jones and his team with interview pick up the Tallamaska, how are they gonna respond to moments like that? I don't I don't know. Ignore it, I suppose, sometimes.

Ashley: Well, and maybe the New Orleans office, just a fucking junior mess. You know? Maybe the New Orleans office is just a mess and no one talks about it. They're like, well, that's a shit show down there. So

Joel: When we get to Paris, it'll all be fine. That's

Ashley: right. That's right.

Joel: Genuine question here, Ashley. What do we gain for the character of Rowan by having her kill Carlotta after an entire episode stuck in the house? As opposed to doing it at dinner at the conclusion of last episode. The way that it plays out in the novel, they come to dinner, it's supposed to be cordial Karlada starts kind of unloading on her as she does in the episode. Your mother was a burden. She was basher's horror, etcetera, etcetera. And Rowan reaches out with her brain and kills her. Right there, that's how it happens in the novel. What did we gain by delaying it a whole episode and and making it like, I mean, here Carlotta was gonna kill Rowan, tried to do it with the knife, then try to do it again by talking her into jumping off the ledge.

Ashley: Well, I think part of it is to show is to show, like, how at the, you know, at the beginning of she tells Lascher, she's I'm not gonna kill her. That's not me. So she's the killing people all over the place. And a bunch of birds, but she tells them I'm not gonna kill her. That's not me. I I'm not like that. But then she has to come to terms over the course of episode with the fact that she is like that. You know what I mean? And I think that that's part that's part of that journey is to kind of show how how to delay it shows that she has to start accepting that about herself and that, you know, spending this time with last year and and she has to understand that she's being kind of pulled in and and and sucked into this whole thing. So I think is to just kind of show a bit of a transition for the character and to give us a little bit more time to kind of to build these just kind of build chemistry and build a relationship between these three characters that are in this bit of a love triangle.

Joel: Alright.

Ashley: Since it's not the fucking book, we we guys spent some time building up the plot line we created.

Joel: Best acting though of the whole season so far, and I bet it's the best acting all season long, my guess, is Beth Grant. With her delivery here on

Ashley: Oh,

Joel: I should've

Ashley: killed you when you were baby. She built a baggins. That's so hard. I loved it. Her face just snapped into a fucking otherworldly expression. It was so good.

Joel: I will say, so here's the thing. They have clearly set this car lot up to literally be Lascher's antagonist. Right? Like, she spent her entire life effectively. She tells us that last year came to her when she was eight. She's now whatever she is supposed to be in the show eighties, nineties, she has spent eighty years fighting Lascher mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually. And in that battle of her life, she's been turned into the exact thing that she thinks she's fighting. You know? She thinks Lasher is a killer, a manipulator, you know, a user. Well, guess what? This Carlada has used up her sisters, manipulated her family, and and the town around her honestly, and killed multiple people.

Ashley: Yep. Yep. Yep. I mean, when you make your I mean, she's gotta be fucking exhausted too because she's been winning. You know? Like, that's the thing. It's she's fighting. She's been fighting Lascher. And in keeping Deirdre under control, she's been fucking winning. So, you know, this is a really She's had a real bad, like, week and a half. Like, since that new doctor showed up, fuck, man, her a lot of his lives fell apart.

Joel: Man, okay. I have expressed my my love previously for these episode insider segments, especially like Robin Jones. I feel like did a really good job on it, but I I like them with breaking bad. I like them with the HBO shows. They do this. You know, I I like

Ashley: I'd love behind the scenes. Inside

Joel: our segments, period.

Ashley: Yeah.

Joel: Here's what I don't love, though. I would I I wish somebody would explain to miss Baldwin what they're supposed to be for. These are supposed to be for behind the scenes info. What were we thinking when we did it this way? Some thoughts on why you felt story needed to head in this direction. Maybe a little hint of where the story is going. Spalding just basically goes, isn't this all very interesting and spooky? No. No. It's not really spalding.

Ashley: No. And I don't feel like and I finished. There's something about these segments that feel very like apologetic in a way, like, it's not it's not like being said so, but it's like, this is, well, we're giving you. Don't you love it?

Joel: She said at the end at the end of this at the end of this one, she said, what is the next episode like? I hope the audience will wonder. Yes, miss Balding. We are all in fact wondering what will the next episode be like? Because so far we've been surprised every time out.

Ashley: At each each and every time. Mhmm. I will say there's a this this episode had some weird ass editing in it too, like, some really odd editing choices. Which I I always notice, but one of them made my husband laugh out loud while we were watching this earlier. And it was when they cut, like, And it didn't even make sense. I guess it was to show that she went downstairs, but she could have just walked downstairs, but it was like a cut from outside the house and they, like, zoomed into the branch. And then the branch moved up and as the branch moves up, we reveal that she's now in, like, the sitting room on the first floor. It was so strange.

Joel: Okay. You know what that looked like? Alright. So the two references that that immediately called the mind for me were and I don't know if they did this throughout the show, but I know they did it early on. Twenty four used to have this, like, segmented framing that they would do where they would show you, like, multiple things at the same time in different boxes. Right?

Ashley: Yeah. And then also

Joel: the original the original Hulk movie would do this too. And the and the Hulk movie was trying to the the anglia Hulk movie with the Airgain. They were trying to mimic comic book panels. Right? Because comic book panels do this very much where you have like something from one scene that forms the border of the panel that then leads you to another panel that is in a different place.

Ashley: Right. But just do that. Do that.

Joel: You can use it artfully This

Ashley: didn't make

Joel: any

Ashley: No. You're right. Make any judgments inside.

Joel: And then we show the we show this spooky tree, and then they're in they're inside again. And you're

Ashley: It was like it was alive. Like, it's so weird. No

Joel: one's left. We can't leave.

Ashley: Yeah. If you show me shit in squares because the world's gonna end in twenty four hours and Jack Bauer has to save it, That's fine. And don't give me some weird tree branch bullshit just to try to look artful. Lord, people maybe start paying attention to editing.

Joel: Ashley, Ashley, Ashley, I'm I'm walking out of my bedroom at some point earlier this week. And Kelly asked me, she's sitting on our bed like scrolling through her phone on something and she goes, did didn't did you used to watch twenty four? And I was literally, like, walking out the door. I was through the door and I stopped. Dead in my tracks. And I, like, slow turned around. And I was like, have I not told you my twenty four story? And she goes, I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna hear your twenty four story. I just I wanted to know if you'd watch twenty four before.

Ashley: What's your twenty four story?

Joel: Say, okay. Our our mutual friend, Andre constantin esque.

Ashley: Oh, Andre. Andre.

Joel: Casting director casting director extraordinaire down in -- Yeah. -- Texas these days.

Ashley: Really just the best person. Working,

Joel: by the way, best person

Ashley: in the world.

Joel: But he's he's running a bunch of the he's the extras casting for the Taylor Sheridan shows. Yeah. He's an amazing guy.

Ashley: He's great.

Joel: Yeah. Anyway, he and I he and I were working outdoor drama in Ohio. We were doing blue jacket together. And I it was, like, Friday night, I had gone out to a party after the show and was hanging out with friends. He had gone home to watch something on TV we had been told. We come in at like two AM, three AM, me and our other roommate Harrison again, mutual favorite? Yes. Nick and I walk into the Nick and I walk into the apartment, and Andre is there on the couch. And he looks at the two of us and he goes, guys. I just watched the first episode of twenty four. Beep. And I think I really love it. Beep. Totally watch it again with you. Would you guys would you guys like to watch it now with me right now? And I was like, Andrey, it's like two o'clock in the morning, man. You're gonna watch we're gonna watch TV now. You're gonna rewatch the episodes. He's like, it was really good. I think you guys like it. I was like, alright. Sure. Turn it on. Ashley, the DVD because it was back in those days. We

Ashley: had late DVDs,

Joel: one DVD a design from blockbuster. He had the first DVD, had four episodes on it. We watched all four episodes before any of us went to sleep that night. We immediately when we woke up the next day, we immediately went to blockbuster on our way to the site and got the next TV TV and watched that the next night. We watched I don't know. The first two or three seasons of twenty four, we watched it in like a weekend, basically. At, you know, at night after our our summer theater job.

Ashley: That's so awesome.

Joel: I love those first few seasons --

Ashley: Oh my god. Me too. -- television episode. Well, any worship diet. I'm Neither for

Joel: beef. I'm here for squares.

Ashley: Oh, my god. I'm here for beef. For God. Yes. That's why it was Yeah. It's what what's why everyone was talking about it. Yeah. What was

Joel: the actress's name?

Ashley: Any worse Yeah. She was she was so good. Renee Walker on that show, because she was badass.

Joel: And

Ashley: she did the one of the voices in last of a she played tests.

Joel: Yes. Yes. That and see, I didn't know that. I'd never I've never played the video game. I'm very excited to get into the TV show, specifically because I've never had the right, I guess, console to play the video game. Anyway, two things I wanna talk about before we wrap up this episode, Ashley. First and foremost, we're gonna get to your spoiler free contemplation about

Ashley: the series, Michael,

Joel: and the character of SIPRIAN, and why one could not be the other. We're gonna get to that in just a second. I want to wrap up though by talking a little bit about that season two renewal and what it means for the larger immortal universe. We've mentioned previously the overall executive producer has has referenced they've got three other series in production in addition to these two. We know interview with the Vampire had already previously been renewed for a season two. Right. But that was before the big budget cuts came from actually. So we were a little wondering, okay, well, we know we're gonna get a season two, but after that, what do we get? This season two was not promised. This season two was not guaranteed. The critical response to this show has not been as much. I think the ratings are actually a little better than interview across the board, but it's a close thing. And the ratings for interview were not huge on standard cable. You know, it was really a lot about the impact that it had on AMC Plus.

Ashley: Yeah. The strain rate.

Joel: I think this renewal, this season two renewal shows they are going to continue to put money into this investment of the anise immortal universe. They're not pulling back from that. The budgets may scale a little bit as we move forward. And we may not get quite as fast expansion into multiple spin offs, etcetera, etcetera. But this is not going away. The budget cuts did not hurt us. I think we're gonna keep moving forward.

Ashley: Yeah. I I agree. And I'm I'm really glad to see I'm like I said, I was thrilled when the news dropped to only be about halfway through the season and already get a renewal for for a time when streaming services are really having a bit of a struggle trying to figure out how to offset the loss of the ad revenue that that they lost from, you know, cable channels that they're losing from their cable channels. So it is really good to see. It's very heartening. I feel I feel really good for the future of our our vamps and switches, you know, we're gonna have a good time regardless. So it doesn't have to all be as good as interview.

Joel: Oh, you know, I said for years, the place we wanted to get to with the MCU, with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, we wanna get to the place where it's like James Bond movies. You can have a bad James Bond movie. And it doesn't mean you hate James Bond now. Right? They'll break another one in a year or two, and you'll go see that one too because they'll make some good ones, they'll make some bad ones. Same thing with Star Trek movies. Right? There's a there's a ton of them. There are some great ones. There are some fine ones. There are some terrible ones.

Ashley: Yeah. The way it

Joel: is when you have a long running franchise.

Ashley: Yeah. The even numbered Star Trek movies are all fantastic. That's not rule of thumb right there. Yeah. Because this is we love this world and we wanna play in it. We wanna get to exist in it. You know, even even things that have been released by Marvel that a lot of people have been like, and that was terrible. I'm like, whatever I had a good time. And I think part of that too is because I've always struggled with comic books as as, like, to be able to read and and and retain information from comic books. I can't My brain doesn't do it right, and I hate it because I really want to. You know, it's not like I'm I'm like a a snob about that is like a literary media. I think it's awesome. And I want to enjoy comic books, but I just can't. And so these movies give me a chance to enjoy those story lines in a way that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to before. And so people that look at a big ass book like the witching hour in her life. Literally

Joel: accessibility.

Ashley: Yeah. I don't I can't wanna sit down and read that. I don't have fifty hours in my, you know, of free time to listen to this audiobook. So it gives them a chance to kind of at least get a a hint of these stories. And I think that that's cool. I think that that's cool and fun, and that's what we should want for other people. But we should want that for other other fans of of of this type of storytelling.

Joel: Absolutely. Absolutely. And and again, like this one especially, even when it hasn't been good, and it hasn't been good in a lot of places. Right. It has always been interesting. It continues to be interesting. So that's been a lot of DP out there, honestly. There's -- For sure. -- so much gray boring nonsense.

Ashley: For sure. And I think part of it was just because we were so, like, enamored with interview at does kinda sound like we're we're we're all of us are hating on this, but I think it's just it's just kind of a comparative thing in in our heads because it's all still so fresh. But, you know, we're gonna we're gonna watch it, we're gonna have fun, we're gonna enjoy the second season, and then watch whatever else they give us over the next three series.

Joel: Hey, man, Sister. We'll be here for all of it. Alright. So if you don't want any spoiler speculation, and now is the time for you to dip off, go join our Facebook community. Go join our Discord community. Go join the conversation and go watch episode six. Next week and rejoin us in our next episode. For those that do want a little spoiler conversation, a little spoiler theory discussion, Here we go. We're gonna dive into it. Alright, Ashley. My question was, why couldn't Ciprian have just been Michael? You said you had a theory

Ashley: I have. What do you think? A theory, and it involves Odette. Sweet, pregnant, Odette. And what

Joel: if

Ashley: that Odette becomes the surrogate for our lesser That was my thought. Alright.

Joel: So here is my one big caveat for that. And it's something that we've talked about, again, spoiler for the books, but in the tail of the body thief over in the vampire chronicles, we have a white character that transfers his consciousness into the body of a character of color. In this in this case, I believe he's of Indian descent. A a brown skinned man. And we talked about the fact that when we talked about that book, that when you translate this onto screen, I bet they're not gonna do a race change for a character that seems sort of dicey to

Ashley: take a y I'm seemly. Put him in

Joel: brown skin for the rest of that character's existence. Yeah. And here too, we would then be taking Lascher and putting that into a little brown baby. And I don't I don't know about

Ashley: that, Ashley. I don't know. I don't know about that either, but I mean, I don't know. It was just something that popped into my head on my second watching this time. Because I was like, man, she's already there. She's super cute and pregnant. She doesn't connect her to that baby at all. Like, she's just a surrogate. She's just a surrogate.

Joel: Yep. Yep. I do think I do think there is definitely something to The fact that they've called this out as a surrogacy pregnancy, the fact that Rowan had sort of thoughts on that and a comment that

Ashley: was grilled

Joel: and distant in a way. Yeah. And it all feels like foreshadowing with the snow, you know, to come. And and again, we're we're five episodes in at this point. And if it's

Ashley: -- Timing wise. -- and

Joel: if it's gonna end in the birth of Lascher as we as we supposed before this series goes, Well, Rowan's gonna have a short ass pregnancy. I mean, it's short in the books too.

Ashley: Right. It is. It is. Yeah. Will

Joel: Michael get married and then immediately our pregnant. And then and then the the baby grows exponentially fast too. But I don't know, man. I think

Ashley: I think

Joel: you were onto something. I think that is where this is going.

Ashley: Subversion. Makes me

Joel: wonder, are they gonna free a Joe Debt? Like

Ashley: Oh, I don't know. That'd be a I mean, that'd be a

Joel: You know, I mean, does Odette survive the birth?

Ashley: I don't know. I don't know. Because really the only reason Rowan did is because

Joel: but

Ashley: I don't know.

Joel: She's

Joel: magic. And then last year, she was too. Right? Exactly. Yeah. So, like, she was able to stitch herself back together and then fed on Yeah. I don't I don't I don't know, man. I'm Oh, no. We saw some wounds magically healed in this episode. Right?

Ashley: Oh, man, the sword get kicked out of her body, though. Dead

Joel: down

Joel: the road if the Tallamasca circles around her and helps her.

Ashley: Well, that's true. They've been established as pretty intense healers now. You know? Like, that was wild. I was like, what the fuck is she pulling out of that? And then she pull a whole damn Oh, damn sword out of herself. It's like, well, that is a very large knife.

Joel: I I don't know, man. You we talked about the confidence that we had that this show would deal with race in a, you know, a a positive way that we would we could be proud of without it being just to flip it, you know, side story line or callously dealt with as it has been in the past. And we felt that way. We felt that confidence because of the way that it was handled in interview with the vampire. But, boy, I don't know, man. I don't have confidence that they're gonna do that right. I think that's probably right though. A dad is gonna have a baby that's that's gonna be a little a little Jack Houston. I

Ashley: mean, I don't know for sure, but it's sure feels I I don't know, guys. I could be totally wrong. It's just complete speculation station on my part, but I just was like, oh, all came

Joel: Well,

Ashley: skipping at the moment, you heard

Joel: it here.

Ashley: That's right.

Joel: If it doesn't

Ashley: happen, she was just

Joel: joking. Don't even worry about it. It was just a theory. It

Ashley: was a terrible idea that hopefully no one will do.

Joel: Oh goodness. Alright. Well, folks, that that's our thoughts on episode five. Of the Mayfair witches, and we are very much looking forward to the next episode. As miss Baldwin said, We don't know what it's gonna be like. We I wonder. Well, I wonder

Ashley: I wonder what might happen.

Joel: We'll be back though to talk about it though. We will. We will. We're gonna talk We'll be back to talk about it. Even listen. Even if it's witch hunters, we'll be back to talk about it. I promise. Until then, we've been your host. I'm Joel. I'm Ashley. And we are the articulate coven.

Joel: Thanks for listening to the Articulate Cove. You can join our community on Facebook by following the links in the show notes or searching for articulate coven on Facebook. You can subscribe to the show in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or at articulatecoven dot com. And share us with your An Rice loving friends.